from 2007
RICHARD SHERMAN
talks about "Mary Poppins"

by Scott Wolf

From the time I was a kid I was a fan of the Sherman brothers. Their names appeared as the songwriters on my "Carousel of Progress" and "Enchanted Tiki Room" 45rpm records. Then I saw their name on my "Winnie the Pooh" record, and on and on.

If you think Richard is a great songwriter, he's just as great an entertainer. He's a natural onstage, he has a knack at captivating an audience, me included, with his charm, anecdotes, and singing.

As I kid I never thought I'd have the chance to know Richard M. & Robert B. Sherman. I cherish my days sitting in Bob's living room, hearing stories and I'm forever grateful for the opportunities to actually interview Richard. It delights me to share our conversations with you.

Richard M. Sherman: We were just freelance songwriters, we’d come in with our songs and Walt would hear them and say, “Yeah, that’ll work.” That was a big compliment.

Scott Wolf: “That’ll work”?

RMS: “That’ll work.” Yeah, that was the major word.

One day he handed us this book and instead of saying, “I need a title song for this,” or “I need a song for this character to sing in this show,” this time he just said, “Read this book and tell me what you think.” And, of course the book was “Mary Poppins.”

We thought a lot about “Mary Poppins” and we came up with a lot of ideas for it… changing the period to the turn-of-the-century, and having conflict in the family, and incorporating five or six lovely chapters into one story as opposed to having just little segments, and having a need for Mary Poppins to come… all these things were things we conceived.

After we had this major meeting with him and we talked for quite a bit, at the end of the meeting he said, “You fellas think story and I like that. How would you like to come and work here?” And that’s when he put us on staff.

SW: So were you actually hired for story rather than songwriting?

RMS: No, we were hired for our ability to write songs but we thought “story” and he liked the way we thought. Every time we wrote a song we’d always have to have a reason for it, and a period for it, and a style for it. We didn’t just write songs, we wrote songs that fit into stories and expressed either a story point or a personality quirk or a desire or something that has to do with the character, and he knew that’s the way we catered every song we wrote. He liked that because then he could use us as production writers.

SW: What kind of person was he?

RMS: The nicest, the kindest, the most generous of spirit man I’ve ever met. He was a wonderful man, a great inspiration. He was very receptive to ideas. He didn’t tell you what to do. He’d say, “Do what you feel is right and then we’ll talk about it.” Then if he liked it, he’d usually plus it, he’d do something to make it even better. He was great, a wonderful producer. I call him the best storyteller in the last century. Nobody told stories better than Walt Disney. That’s the way I feel about it.

SW: And going back to “Mary Poppins,” I didn’t realize that it didn’t take place in the turn-of-the-century.

RMS: No. If you read the books you’d see that there’s no storyline whatsoever. Mary flies in on the east wind and out on the west wind. She has no reason for coming, and she does wonderful things with the children, they have wonderful adventures and then she flies out again, and there’s no change in anybody. There wasn’t a story there at all, so we said we have to have a family in conflict, we have to have everybody doing their thing and nobody’s paying attention to the kids, and they have to have more attention paid to them.

That’s the reason why certain songs have significance, like “Feed the Birds (Tuppence a Bag).” It shows that it doesn’t take much to show a little love, to show a little kindness.

SW: I don’t think there’s ever been a better movie.

RMS: Thank you. A lot of great people worked on that show very hard and very long.

SW: And Julie Andrews was new to the scene, right? This was her first film.

RMS: She was a huge star on Broadway but she was not well-known outside of the Broadway scene and she became a world sensation from “Mary Poppins,” yes indeed.

SW: And still popular today.

RMS: Oh sure. I think that she had a great talent and Walt had the courage to take an unknown as far as film is concerned and put her in a starring role in his most elaborate film. It took a lot of guts on his part, but he had a sense of talent. He didn’t worry about their track record. He’d just want to know the talent. He saw her as she’d be perfect and that is what it was.

SW: When did you start work on “Mary Poppins”?

RMS: We started in 1960 on it. It was a four year process. We’d done fifteen movies between that and about fifteen television shows and things for the parks and things, all the while we were working on “Poppins.”

SW: Was that your first Academy Award that you won?

RMS: Yes, we won two of them. We won one for the song, “Chim Chim Cheree” and we won one for the whole score, so it was two we got. We got nominated many times subsequently. We were nominated nine times in all, we never won another one but we were nominated nine times in all.

SW: For those of us who will never know, what was it like to go to as a nominee and win the Oscar?

RMS: It was sort of unbelievable. Actually, it was the first time out for us. We had never done a major, major picture and it became such a big hit and on top of it to be nominated for two things. We thought we’re never going to win it, but it would be kind of fun to go to the party. We put on our best clothes and went to the show. It was an unbelievable thing.

I remember the second time when we won for Best Song, I really was prepared not to win because the competition was fierce. They had “Dear Heart” which was a huge hit and they another song called “My Kind of Town” which was a huge, huge hit with Sinatra.

We thought we don’t have a chance. Our little song was just an English folk song… it’s not going to happen, it can’t possibly happen, and we didn’t count on anything and then we won both awards. It was just amazing. It was unforgettable, I’m not blasé. It was a big huge thrill and I still remember it with fondness.

SW: And you were up against some great composers. You were up against some of the best, not newcomers.

RMS: (Henry) Mancini and (Jay) Livingston and (Ray) Evans had written “Dear Heart” and Sammy Cahn and Jimmy van Heusen had written, “My Kind of Town.” These were major players in the music business and huge successful songwriters, so we thought we’d never get it and next thing we know we won the award.

SW: I happen to be fans of all of those composers as well and you know I’ve long been a fan of yours as well. But you know, now over time, more people know your songs than even George Gershwin or Irving Berlin or Cole Porter.

RMS: Well, maybe in your generation. (He laughs) In my generation Cole Porter and Jerome Kern and Rodgers and Hammerstein and Rodgers and Rodgers and Hart are still the kings, believe me. I think you’re prejudiced on our behalf.

SW: What are you doing nowadays?

RMS: Right now, I kind of like watching Mary Poppins succeed. It was nominated (for a Tony) for the best musical on Broadway, and seven other nominations.

We didn’t get nominated because it’s not original, a lot of it is written for the picture, but it was nominated for Best Musical, so that’s kind of great.

SW: That’s very impressive, all these years later. Do you have a favorite project you ever worked on?

RMS: Yeah. “Mary Poppins” by far. Everything was so great. We had the greatest team of writers, Don DaGradi and Bill Walsh… Walt Disney was in his top form running the show. We had the artwork of Peter Ellenshaw that genius (who did the amazing lifelike matte paintings), we had the great musical director Irwin Kostal, we had the great choreographers Marc Breaux and Dee Dee Wood, plus the incredible Dick Van Dyke and the incredible Julie Andrews. We had all these wonderful people.

You don’t have a dream cast and a dream behind-the-scenes group like that too often, so it was really something… it was something great.

It was acknowledged as Walt Disney’s greatest achievement and I think it was.

SW: I agree. For me, I loved it as a kid, but it took on so much more meaning as an adult and the message of not missing out on your family as you live your life.

RMS: Exactly, “Tuppence a Bag,” it doesn’t take much. Just a little bit of love and caring and that’s all it takes to make it work.

SW: Do you have a favorite memory of working on “Mary Poppins?”

RMS: I think it’s got to be the fact that Walt Disney recognized when I played “Feed the Birds” for the very first time that that’s what the whole picture would be all about. He had such an intuition for what we were doing. When he heard the song, he said, “Hmm….” Then we had this long meeting, and then he said, “Play that bird woman thing again.” So I played “Feed the Birds” again and he said, “That’s what it’s all about, isn’t it?”

We said, “That’s right! That’s right! That’s exactly what we’re trying to say. It doesn’t take much, but the father and the mother have to bend, they have to think about the children, and giving them more than just food, clothing and shelter… they have to give them love.” And he said, “How’d you like to work here?” And he put us under contract.

(He thinks for a bit) That and I think the first time I heard Julie Andrews singing “Spoonful of Sugar” with Irwin Kostal’s orchestra. I was in the booth and I realized the dream has come true. That was one of the greatest moments… I cried like a baby. That was one of the greatest moments.