from 2009
JEFFREY  SHERMAN
talks about his movie, the boys: the story of the sherman brothers

by Scott Wolf

From as far back as I can remember, I was a fan of Richard M. and Robert B. Sherman. Shortly after meeting them, they both took me out to lunch at the Smokehouse restaurant in Burbank, a day I'll never forget.

In time, I became friends with Bob's son Robbie and some of my fondest memories are sitting in the Sherman's den with Bob, Robbie and my wife Shani. We'd talk about all kinds of things, but Bob never minded talking about his Disney days. What always struck me about Bob is how fatherly he seems. He is kind, warm, caring and generous.

The new film, the boys: the sherman brothers' story, is produced and directed by Bob & Dick's sons, Jeff and Gregg respectively.

Recently, Jeff took the time to talk with me about the boys and some memories of growing up with a "Disney dad." I thought it would be fun to scatter some of the photos I've taken of Bob over the years. I hope you enjoy the photos and this wonderful conversation with Jeff Sherman.

Scott Wolf: How did the idea of The Boys come about?

Jeff Sherman: Gregg and I got together at the opening of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang in London in 2002 for the first time in our lives. We saw our dads do their hand salute that you can find out about when you see the movie. I didn't know what that was, first of all, and I ran into Gregg at the after party and I'd never really spoken to him before. I'd seen him at things and said hi, but I never really had a conversation.

We ended up speaking all night, and then shortly after that we decided it was really interesting about our dads being these foremost family film composers, but they had this rift and this strange sort of dynamic between the two of them. Pretty soon we figured out that probably a lot of the dynamic of their differences was also what made their songs so great, because they would challenge each other and they would rise up higher because of that dynamic.

I'm a writer and Gregg's a writer and we felt that there was something there, there was a really interesting character thing, and we could never sell the biopic because as much as people love the Sherman brothers' songs, they generally never really associated the Sherman brothers with everything from "You're Sixteen (You're Beautiful and You're Mine)" to the things they've written in this century.

So there was a day I took Gregg out to a deli for his birthday and we were sitting there and Mary Poppins was going to be opening on Broadway in November, 2006. It was a couple months before that and I said to Gregg, "You know, people aren't getting it." Like you can sing the songs and people are like, "Oh, 'Winnie the Pooh', I love that song," but they didn't get it. I said, "Mary Poppins is the ultimate movie that they did, that's what most people think. Here they're going to see each other after a couple years of not seeing each other." I said, "Let's get two camera crews and see what happens. I'll take one with my dad from his hotel room to the theatre, and Gregg, you take one with your dad," so we started doing this.

We realized at this opening that Roy Disney was going to be there, and Cameron Mackintosh and Tom Schumacher and all these different people that we could speak to, so we just started setting up all these interviews and the thing kind of had a life of its own.

Suddenly we started shooting things, we came back to L.A. and we shot Barbara Broccoli and a few other people and we cut together a twenty five minute presentation.

Roy Disney called Dick Cook and said, "You've got to see this thing!" Dick called us in and we screened the twenty five minutes for him and as the lights were coming up in his private screening room in the Team Disney building, he looked at us and he said, "This is great, let's do it."

SW: Was it always the intention to show the tougher times as well as the good times?

Gregg Sherman, A.J. Carothers and Richard Sherman

JS: Yeah, there was some of that in there. The person who really knew them the best, both of them, and understood their dynamic was the late A.J. Carothers... a wonderful guy who started me writing. I credit both my dad and A.J. Carothers as having started me writing.

We went to A.J. because both our dads said, "Well, if you want to know about us, ask A.J." We went over and talked to A.J. and he told us a whole lot. This was in the biopic stage, when we were doing that.

So to answer your question, I think that was intriguing to us because we didn't understand how these guys could write these uplifting happy family songs and everybody at the end holds hands and goes and flies a kite yet we couldn't do it. I think that it was interesting and we wanted to understand it.

We didn't want to get into the real deep, dark, we didn't want to get into that level.

What was intriguing to me was that they were always different, even from childhood. I didn't know that before, that my dad was sitting writing poetry and writing plays and raising money for war bonds and Dick was jumping out of trees and getting put in military school. They were always so different. Those differences, again, are what really made those songs, that and, modestly speaking, their genius and they're mutual genius together in being able to come up with these things.

SW: Growing up, did your dad talk to you much about his brother, kindly or not?

JS: I heard a lot of things. My dad would often come home, very upset, and maybe he wouldn't talk to me but you'd sure hear it. I knew there were issues and I'd hear him complaining. In the film, you see it, Dick pushes his buttons, Dick interrupts him, Dick runs to the piano and says, "I've got it for you!" and my dad's very methodical, so there were always these differences. Nobody is right in that situation, it takes both guys to do this.

I asked my dad, "If you dislike this so much, if it makes you so unhappy, why do you do this?" He said, "Because we're really good at it. We're successful and I don't think I could do this with anybody else."

SW: Even with the "dark side" of everything, you didn't have negative feelings toward Gregg?

JS: I didn't know what to make of Gregg, I had my preconceived notions about the Dick Sherman family honestly and I'm sure he had them about my family.

It's interesting, in going into this "dark side," as you call it, I don't think it's dark, I think it's just reality. It's real people. People aren't people in a Disney movie, people are real people. (chuckling) The Sherman brothers are certainly more real than a lot of people at times.

SW: I don't picture your father being completely comfortable in front of the camera. Was it an easy sell to get him to talk on camera?

JS: Going into this I remember thinking, "How are we going to do a documentary, because I'm sure my dad never talked on film." Jeff Kurtti said, "Oh, there's a lot of interviews with your dad," and he brought us a bunch of them and some other people brought in things. Suddenly there was so much material. I realized that my dad does talk about it. He doesn't like to talk about his personal life that much, he was very private about it. But at the time he had just written his book, "Moose," which was all personal stories.

SW: What was it like when you told him you wanted to do this movie?

JS: He was cautious. He said, "What are you going to talk about?"

But, he's a huge biography nut and he loves them, and I said to him, "Dad, this is your chance to have your biography told in your own words, and we want to hear it from you guys, and the people around you." He asked who was going to be involved and he went, "Okay. Let's do it." So he was interested. There were ground rules and we didn't cross them, it just didn't need to.

I think we did succeed in painting them as very different kinds of guys and showing how those differences make the songs in the movies and the scripts and all the other things they did work, but maybe didn't make for the greatest relationship.

Even with all the darkness and negativity that we talked about, the amazing thing for me is that it's not unusual for brothers to fight, and certainly brothers or siblings in business together will fight. There will be disagreements. But, how many of them can do it for sixty years and come up with these beautiful songs.

SW: In my own little world of Disney that I'm around, I so often hear people focusing on the fact that the brothers didn't get along, but there's so much more to it, and such fantastic clips. What is the film to you?

JS: The film to me is this. People will think of the Sherman brothers and they'll say, "Oh, they're kiddie songs."

SW: Yeah, I hate that.

JS: I never understood that because Barney is kiddie songs or something from a Pokemon movie, but how many songs have "atrocious," or "precocious" or these huge words. My dad is such a lover of words and my uncle writes these incredibly beautiful melodies that are right up there with the classical composers. They would put these things in and they're deceptive because they're not trying to impress you. As we talked about in the movie, it's simple, singable and sincere. And original, that was their grandfather's thing. They were able to take this intelligent approach and make it seem like a simple song, but there's nothing simple about them. They tell stories, they open you up, they make you feel things. It's not about flying a kite, it's about being with your family.

Knowing who these guys are, I also wanted to kind of let you know who my dad was because he's sort of the quiet one. In most interviews you'll see, he shuts off because Dick will do all the talking, so we interviewed him alone. I wanted people to get to know him, too, and to really go back, now that you know who they are, you're going to listen to these songs different and you'll get something more out of it and you'll see that "Feed the Birds" is about charity and you'll find out that family and love and togetherness and world peace... they didn't hit you over the head with it, they've snuck in, through their intelligence, being simple, singable and sincere. And in their own way they changed the world. 

More from Jeff:
A special memory of Walt Disney

See other interviews

NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the participants in the interviews are solely those of the interviewee and do not necessarily reflect the views of Mouse Clubhouse. Mouse Clubhouse accepts no legal liability or responsibility for any claims made or opinions expressed within.